In this conversation, Tom Kreffer discusses his journey as a father and author. He shares how he discovered the power of journaling and how it became a therapeutic outlet for him. Tom explains the unique perspective of his books, which capture the everyday moments of fatherhood in real time. He emphasizes the importance of being a good dad and the need for support and community for young fathers. Tom also discusses the challenges of modern parenthood and the importance of investing in personal growth and relationships for better parenting. In this conversation, Tom Kreffer shares his experiences as a father and the importance of prioritizing family time. He emphasizes the value of enjoying the present moments and answering the bids for attention from his son. Tom also discusses the significance of relationships and the effort required to maintain them. He shares grounding strategies such as journaling, playing with his son, exercise, and taking baths. Lastly, Tom offers advice for those struggling and encourages them to define their challenges and seek support.

Takeaways

Journaling can be a powerful tool for processing emotions and becoming a better parent.

Sharing personal stories and experiences can help other parents feel less alone and more understood.

There is a need for more support and resources for dads in the parenting space.

Investing in personal growth and relationships is essential for being the best version of yourself as a parent. Prioritize family time and answer the bids for attention from your children.

Enjoy the present moments and embrace opportunities to create special memories.

Value relationships and put effort into maintaining them.

Find grounding strategies that help you relax and unwind.

Chapters

00:00 Introduction and Background

01:00 Discovering the Power of Journaling

02:22 The Unique Perspective of the Books

03:47 Spreading a Positive Message about Fatherhood

04:39 The Unexpected Journey of Writing Books

05:08 The Healing Power of Journaling

06:07 Using Journaling to Reflect on Parenting

07:05 The Abundance of Material for the Books

08:17 The Importance of Being a Good Dad

09:15 Creating a Legacy for His Children

10:13 The Need for Support and Community for Young Dads

11:07 The Importance of Expressing Emotions

11:43 The Role of Dads in the Parenting Space

13:06 Capturing Universal Truths in Parenting

14:34 The Decision to Share Personal Stories

15:33 The Impact of Sharing Personal Stories

16:32 The Surprising Readership of the Books

17:20 The Role of Women in Supporting Dads

20:43 The Changing Role of Fatherhood

23:42 The Challenges of Modern Parenthood

26:28 The Impact of Societal Expectations on Dads

27:59 The Importance of Choice in Fatherhood

30:41 The Need for Teamwork in Parenting

33:01 The Daunting Nature of Parenthood

34:11 The Importance of Building Support Networks

36:25 Investing in Personal Growth for Better Parenting

38:08 The Impact of Investing in Relationships

43:28 Creating a Better Future for Our Children

46:30 Prioritizing Family Time

47:06 Enjoying the Present Moments

48:34 Valuing Relationships

51:37 Finding Grounding Strategies

54:02 Helping Others in Dark Places

55:31 Where to Find Tom Kreffer

Find more of Joon:

IG: @joonforkids

- X: @joonforkids

- TikTok: @joonforkids

Discount code: YNGDAD

Link to direct listeners to: joonapp.io/youngdad

Jey (00:15.773)

All right, all right. Well, welcome in to another episode of the Young Dad Podcast. Thanks to our LiveIn Studio audience. Huge shout out to them. I'm your host Jay, and joining me today is Tom. Tom, how are you today?

tom kreffer (00:28.374)

Very good, Jay. Very good. Thank you.

Jey (00:31.065)

I'm so excited to have you. This is gonna be a lot of fun. A little bit about you. I whistle-stopped Tor, if you would. New phrase for me over here in the States, but you know, it's okay. A little about you. Your partner and yourself, you guys were told you couldn't have kids naturally. So you guys were working on surgery and working through the IVF process when she, lo and behold, she was pregnant, which is a beautiful miracle in itself.

Um, for you, that was a, a big, big kind of turning point in this journey that you've been on since, um, you had so much emotion and so many good, happy feelings. I'm sure scared, feared, upset, worried, anxious, all the above. When you find out you're going to be a dad for the first time. And so you took to writing in a journal on that morning and you discovered that

In that journal entry, you were writing it to your unborn child. And for you, that was a great outlet, essentially. And so you ended up journaling every day that week and then the next week. And then three months in, you realize by accident, you were writing your first book. Which you ended up calling. You called you guys ended up calling your bump Dory from the movie Finding Nemo and Dory's catchphrases, Just Keep Swimming. That resonated with you.

because you guys faced some low moments early on in your pregnancy and fertility journey. Your first child, Arlo, was born in 2019. Your first book, Dear Dory, came out in the winter of 2020. So about a year later, from there you kept writing, kept capturing everything, all the experiences that related to parenthood, fatherhood, dadding. And I...

Your books, they're super interesting and they're super unique in the way that they give readers an insight like no other, because every single moment is captured day after day after day after day, moment growth, every single milestone. It's all captured in real time. And it offers a much broader perspective than your typical nonfiction memoirs, kind of things like that. Some of the words that

Jey (02:50.189)

are common in reviews of your book that readers describe your work as is honest, it's relatable, funny. For me personally, reading through it, I just felt it was so like, it's so real, so raw. Like it wasn't, it wasn't anything like, yes, it's a, it's a great recap and whatnot. But I'm like, that's just, that's just how cool it is to be a dad is the accurate representation. Like that's accurate. Yeah.

Like, thank goodness you were able to get a lion that night before the next morning of craziness. And then your second book came out in 2021 called Dear Arlo. Then your third, Toddler, Inc., which I love the idea for that one, came out in 2022. And then the one I've been skimming through, The Search for Sanity, came out last week. Well, at the time of this recording was about a week ago, so it's been a few months.

at the time of this release. You spend a lot of your time writing books, free guides on your website, or attending baby expos to talk about your work and letting dads know that they're not alone, which is huge, because like you found, there's a lot of work to do in this field, letting dads know they're not alone and to really spread a positive message about daddying and parenting and even daddying and whatnot. There's a big need for it.

And when you go to events, you know, big or small, you're obviously there with a purpose and you're there for a message for dads. So with all that, that's a bit about you. Anything you wanna add, redact, or just let us know a little bit more about you and kind of why you keep doing it and why you kept doing it.

tom kreffer (04:39.474)

Great intro, great intro. Not much to add on the intro, pretty well covered off. But the main point to take away is that the books were a complete fluke. I found journaling at the start of my parented journey to be a way of sifting through my emotions. When I found out my partner was pregnant, I'm a reader right, not just writing books, I love to read. So my first protocol was to write what

What can I read? What can help me just begin to get to grips with what I later have understood to be the biggest I've done to shift that we can undergo as a human being. I couldn't find a lot. So I took, yeah, as you say, I went, found my pen and paper and I started journaling. And that was an incredible process. The words just seemed to flow out. I found that I was able to tease out emotional blockages and friction that I didn't even know I was harbouring.

until I started just putting words on the page. So that in itself sort of really opened my eyes to journaling and how powerful an ally it could be just for getting through your day. It's also incredibly cheap. Costs zero therapy bills, just a couple of pens, a couple of notepads and you're along your way. So that really helped me begin to get my head round fatherhood. And as that journey has progressed and continued, I use journaling as a way to

keep me in check as a parent. Every day I sit through and I look at what I've done that day, the time I've spent with Arlo, my son. Did I get those decisions right? Did I get them right? Did I spend enough time with him? Did I not? And that helps me become the best father I can be. Just as simple as that. I think you need introspection and to reflect on what you do in life.

to be able to learn from those experiences and for them to inform your future choices. And they're just incredibly fun with the process of just, I mean, I will sometimes go down a rabbit hole and write some pretty deep stuff, but most of the time I'm just having fun. I just write about the funny stories and the funny things that happen and when you've got a baby, a one year old, a two year old, a three year old, they just, they come through thick and fast. There's so much to write about. Every year my friends...

tom kreffer (07:05.67)

They're like, how you've written another book already. I'm like, I can't stop on, I've got too much material. The problem with my books is deciding what to keep and what to cut. The material really isn't a difficult thing to achieve at all. I just have a fascinating and compelling lead character who just surprises me every day. It brings me so much joy, it brings me so much meaning for this. It's like, how can I not write about this? And so I tell people that...

The books are wonderful and I'm very proud of them and I love that they're there to help other parents but they really are just a by-product of my commitment to just be the best dad I can be. It's as simple as that. I just I want to be a good dad. Personally I don't know my dad, he's never been a part of my life, it's just me and my mum. So I didn't have a blueprint to work from whether that was a list of things not to do or a list of things to do and generally it just helps me.

figure that out. It's just a very good companion piece and something I will take with me, and not just for parenthood but all other areas of my identity. My hobbies, my interests, other things I want to get online, career aspirations, things like that.

Jey (08:17.917)

100%. I love that. And I love that, you know, where it came from was just out of a place of just needing it as an outlet for yourself. Just to create something, just to get it out, just to have that outlet that was, you know, what worked for you in the moment that was like, okay, what can I do? How can I cope? How can I get through this? And mine just went to journaling. And I love that. And I love the idea behind it that I'm sure you've thought of so many times and heard so many times.

You know, your son's going to look back on this and he's going to look back on all these books when he's older and be like, Holy crap, like I have a whole recount of my entire life that now I can show my kids and they can show their kids about their grandpa. And, you know, it's just something it's a legacy piece. It's something that is just like a legacy piece now for you, for him, and then for any other children that you may have as well, you know, will be added into future stories if there are going to be future children.

And so I just think it's so cool that it's, it's so relatable because it's so simple, it shows like every little development phase and just like how it started is you were looking for something and it didn't exist. So you made something for yourself and now it turned into something for others who were in the same boat. Um, a lot about how this podcast started too, as we were looking for something. I had been looking for something personally, like after my divorce and for a podcast that

made sense for being divorced and being a young dad and being a single dad. And then I ran across my good buddy, Craig and his podcast, Single Dad Reboot. And we started talking just on Instagram. I reached out to him. We became friends. We're really good friends now. We stay in good contact and it just kind of evolved from there. Just like, well, what is there for like young dads who are in their twenties and

raising kids and still growing up and developing and going through like the rough patches of marriage and divorce and you know not understanding what that all looks like and you know I might not be an expert. I mean yes I have a degree in mental health and human services and I'm working on a masters in psychology and whatnot but I mean I'm not an expert on it obviously I'm no expert. Am I well informed kind of?

Jey (10:38.909)

but I'm not an expert, but I think it's really cool to be able to provide that this kind of outlet, like you with your book and this podcast to all the dads out there, like, hey, look, like you're not alone. Like even if you feel like you're alone, sitting down and journaling, because that's all you can think of, like you still have you in that moment. You still have, you're still keeping it together. You're writing it out, you're getting out, you're expressing those feelings, which is ultimately what's...

important is getting it out, getting it out in an outlet because if men, if we keep that energy in, that energy is very easily internalized and turns into cell sabotage, turns into anger, turns into, it fuels rage, it turns into fire, turns into spite, turns into resentment, it turns into all these things, turns into addictions from there, turns into poor mental health. So just the fact that you're able to get it out and

be able to now have fun with it because you do have a really cool main character. I mean, even the name of your main character is pretty cool. So it's, it's just a really cool story. It's a really cool, you know, idea that has now come to fruition and is three, three books, I said three books, right? Four books in, and it's just.

tom kreffer (11:43.714)

Thank you.

tom kreffer (11:57.87)

Four books now, yeah.

Jey (11:59.897)

It's amazing because it documents everything and you even put stuff about in there about like, you know stuff between you and your partner like that's the stuff relatable to a dad it's like oh we you know, we did this thing or finally had some time for ourselves or Got a babysitter to do this thing or whatever that looks like so it's really it's like oh, yeah like I'm not the only one whose relationship, you know, maybe we get a lay in once a week twice a week kind of thing um

Okay, that's not as, I'm not as crazy as I think it is because we're just so busy and tired and I'm not just going nuts over here.

tom kreffer (12:36.282)

Well, one of the things that I quickly established, and I said to myself, if I'm gonna keep doing this gig, it has to be honest. Whatever I write has to be honest. And not necessarily just factually true, see that's important as well. But I had to be honest with myself and think like, what am I going through? What am I experiencing? What is the parenting truth that I've been dealing with today? So in some of my books, I have like fictional elements.

and I just make up these really ridiculous scenes, but they're all grounded in a parent in truth. I'll give you one example. We once found Arlo sitting on the worktop and he'd ripped open a ton of tea bags everywhere, just classic toddler stuff. And his mother found a way to defend him. It wasn't his fault, it wasn't even him. And that immediately made me chuckle.

And I thought, well, that's the thing, isn't it? Right there, that is the thing. You've got the mum who insists that her little angel can do no wrong, even though he's been caught red-handed at the scene of the crime. So I was like, well, how could I tell that in an interesting way? And in the end, I told it as a courtroom scene with Arlo being on trial and as a judge, and me and his mother are in the jury and we're answering questions and things like that. And even though it's a bit silly and ridiculous, it's still grounded in that one truth or that one cliche with mums and their...

children or certainly their sons and how they can just do no wrong in their eyes. So whenever I see something like that, something that I think is a universal truth, there's universal as these things can go in parenthood, I immediately latch onto that. That's something I want to explore, find out why, which is one of the reasons why I think a lot of people find my work so relatable, even if it is a bit ridiculous at times, because it's all grounded in truth. That's the key word, has to be honest.

To touch on a couple of other things you mentioned, my decision to release Dear Dory out into the world was not taken lightly. One of the reasons I wanted to do it was because I thought it would help other parents looking for the types of books that I was looking for. But that said, I was very conscious that I had wrote a book about my son who at the time he wasn't even born yet. There was no conversation with him. There's no consent.

tom kreffer (15:03.166)

I took that decision and I ran with it. And I asked everyone, I told all my friends, all my family, I was like, I'm keeping this journal. I think it might be a book project, I don't know yet, but what do you think? Without doubt, everyone said, if my parents had kept a journal when they were pregnant with me, I would have found that fascinating. And I had the same answer, if my mum had done that, I would have found it fascinating. So I took that as my...

Jey (15:05.342)

Mm-hmm.

Jey (15:24.609)

100%.

tom kreffer (15:33.246)

sort of justification for moving forward. And I've sort of kept maintain that justification to capture his early life in so much detail. I'm not gonna keep going forever. In fact, I'm pretty sure I'm gonna stop when he goes to school. So I'll capture early childhood for sure. And there was another point I was gonna make, but I'm blanking on it now because we've been talking for so long. But actually one, I've remembered it now. Most of my readers are women.

their mums, which was so surprising because when Dear Dory came out, I did think I was going to be able to market to mums. I thought I was going to get a bunch of emails from very angry pregnant women saying, why have you disproved your experience with living with a pregnant woman in this way? And I just, I thought it was, I thought I was going to get, get just harangued with, with emails, bombarded with stuff. The opposite was true. Not only did they completely love the book, but they, they read it more than the dads because

what I found and what I experienced myself before I turned to journaling is generally speaking, not all, but generally speaking, blokes aren't great at chatting. They're not good at opening up. They're not good at finding an outlet to work through all that emotional baggage. Women seem to be better at it. So what I was finding is women were reading my books and then they were giving it to their pet partners and saying, is this true? Can you relate to this? And they were going, oh, yeah, no, I can actually. Yeah, I know it's captured really well. And then it would help both of them, which

as an author who's someone who was making it up as he goes along that was just the most amazing find and discovery for that process. But yeah even if I'm at shows it's more the women who were wanting to buy or encouraging their partners to buy the books so it's quite it's quite fascinating.

Jey (17:20.733)

100%. And no, that rings very true even in this kind of dadding, dadcasting kind of universe that I'm in with all these different podcasts that I've created with all these different dads and their platforms and whatnot. We all pretty much share a very common demographic of about 30 to 40% of our listenership being female. Right now, personally, I know on Spotify we're...

right around 40% female, 60% male. But then again, I would assume that 60% male is because the 40% female listened to it and then shared it with one or two from there. Because that's honestly just that's just how it goes. I mean, I can think of time or time again that my fiance now will send me something and it'll be like, okay, no, I get that. I relate to that just like you're saying.

or my ex-wife, same kind of thing, she would bring it to me before I would find it because yes that rings true in the UK just as much as it does in the USA. Where we don't want, we don't, blokes they're not great at talking. It rings true in the UK, it rings true in Australia, it rings true in the United States, rings true everywhere in the world.

Jey (18:48.921)

you know, men's suicide versus women's suicide. It's four to one in the United States. I'm pretty sure it's very similar in the UK. I'm pretty sure it's very similar in Australia as well, because all our countries are very similar in these aspects. There's a bit more accessibility outside of the USA, too. Mental health services are way over ran. They're sparse in some areas, they're heavy in other places. And

Uh, there's wait lists upon wait lists years long, and it's a defeating purpose at times, even working in the field myself. Um, it's really hard, but I would have to agree with that. It's, you know, it's women that are bringing it to their, to their partners and saying, you can relate to this. And then you see it and you're like, Oh, hold on. Let me, let me see that real quick.

tom kreffer (19:26.809)

What?

Jey (19:42.013)

It's the same for my book, my children's books that I've written. It was very well received by moms and moms would buy it and show it to their partners. I work with mostly women in my workplace, of course, being in mental and behavioral health. And when I published it, they all went out and got a copy and they're like, oh, I can't wait to give this to my husband or my boyfriend or my fiance or my significant other or this masculine person in my life.

dad, grandpa, whatever, like I can't wait to give this to him to read to my kids, to read to our kids. So it rings very true even in like picture books and whatnot, because that's just, I don't know, it's just how it works and even in podcasting and whatnot. We kind of, women are the referrers. They're the intake, they screen it. If it works, then they let it go out from there. So they're kind of the gatekeepers in an essence to some of these.

some of these things, which I think is really interesting.

tom kreffer (20:43.098)

Well, I think just talking back to parenthood, I think the role of fatherhood is really out for debate and what it means to a certain individual level. Like I remember asking my father-in-law how many nappies he changed when my partner was a baby. And he said I didn't change a nappy. And he wasn't a bad father. He just he comes from a generation that wasn't expected to. And so we talked about trying to be more hands-on.

Jey (20:55.253)

Yeah.

tom kreffer (21:13.282)

And we're looking to previous generations for how we might do that. But that blueprint doesn't really exist. And I think that the definition of what it means to be a father today really is up to our own making. It's not clear at all. That's something I think about all the time. And the other thing I think we struggle with is if you've got, if you've got a lot of dads who want to be more hands on, but they also want to do.

Jey (21:31.934)

Yeah.

tom kreffer (21:40.45)

the career, working however many hours a day, they also want to adhere to all those other parts of their identity that came before. And same for mums as well. Mums are, see they carry that maternal gene. They're brilliant at it. My partner, she is a phenomenal mother. She really is. She was just born to be a mum. But then we've got women who think in, hang on, I fancy a career as well. Why shouldn't I have a career? And we said, yep, that's a fair point.

Jey (22:06.313)

Mm-hmm.

tom kreffer (22:08.182)

You shouldn't. So we've got men and women sort of going about different roles, but what they're not doing is they're not saying, well, I want to say yes to this, but what am I saying no to? They're saying yes to everything that came before and yes to the new stuff that to your point about the mental health staff that you brought up. I think that's one of the contributing reasons we have too much stuff, too much inbound. We're trying to do a million one things each day.

We're not taking that time to reflect, taking that time to ourselves to figure out who we are and who we wanna be, what direction do our lives, we wanna lead our lives in. And I think that can really affect us as parents when your minds are clouded and you've got kids being kids, tearing the furniture apart, talking 20 times the volume that they need to talk inside the house, things like that. And I think it's a challenge. I think it's really hard.

I mean, if I didn't have, if I didn't book out the time every day to just sit for 10 minutes with a pen and paper, I just can't, I don't know how to cope. I don't know how I'd cope. So whether it's women buying our books or listening to your podcasts and saying to their partners, Hey, check this out. Uh, whatever works, right. I think that we have a lot of work to do as a society in the developed world. To move sort of beyond this and find, find a place where we, apparently it's never going to be easy, but easier.

And that takes, you know, who knows how long that'll take. Who knows whatever avenues will present themselves as viable solutions.

Jey (23:42.121)

Very true. And I think it's really interesting that you bring up this topic because it really is, you know, fatherhood is really what you make it. And, you know, we can ask our grandfathers if they well, some people can ask their grandfathers. I personally can't. But I could ask my grandpas if they ever change a diaper or nappy and they're likely going to say no.

Probably and absolutely not. Um, cause that just wasn't their role. Fast forward to our generation, millennials, uh, Gen Z is after millennial, I think right around our generations. And that statistic, I saw it somewhat recently, it's probably a few weeks ago, but that statistic itself has gone up from, I'm sorry, um, it's gone up to nearly like 80% like dad's report that they

changed diapers during, you know, diaper years and they're involved and whatnot. So it's changing. It's changing. However, like you said, what also changed along with that is that, well, some of that was based on necessity and was based on having to, because women can have the same careers as men. We still want to have our careers as men too. Women want to have their careers too. So it's

evolved to the place where, well, if both people want to be successful, then both people have to do these certain roles and do these certain things. And both people have to do it. It can't just be one versus the other because mother's working and I'm working. So now we when we're both off work or you're still working and I'm at home, then I still have to do it kind of thing. I can't not do it because I can't let my kid sit in his own poop. Of course. So it's very important to.

to realize that, but it is ultimately, today it's parenting and relationships and motherhood and fatherhood, it's 100% whatever you make it out to be, is what it is. There's no set roles anymore. There's no defined, oh the mom, well she has to stay home and take care of the kids and feed them and raise them and do all these things for them.

Jey (25:59.733)

Dad's gonna go to work and has to do X, Y, and Z and come home, eat dinner, and go to sleep, and fart, and drink beer. That's not how it is anymore. It's really what you make it. It's really what you make it out to be. And there are a lot of dads who are out there. I see it every day in multiple Facebook groups that are like, well, I wanna do more, but I can't. I'm restricted, I'm limited. It's a big problem here in the United States. It's a big, big issue.

One that I personally believe is very easily correctable, but won't because of past incentives that were given by the government during presidents post World War II to incentivize single mothers and incentivize welfare programs and incentivize not having fathers in the home that has carried very negatively over the course of the next.

What is it? 60, 70, 80 years post World War II into today in our country. So it's just a, it's a big mess, but it is it 100% is what you make it out to be. You it's a choice. If you want to be involved, then yeah, you're be involved. If you don't, then it's unfortunate, but society is just going to kind of let, at least here in the United States, it's going to let men slide. It's like, oh, you don't want to be involved. Cool. Sign your rights away. You know, the mom's got it.

no big deal, wash your hands and walk away. And there's still stigma around if women did that and all that fun stuff, but it's a big issue and it really is what you make it. If dads wanna be involved, then be involved and prove that you are worthy of being involved. And cause we have to prove it, it's not just gonna naturally be given to us because that's just how society's made out to not naturally give it to dads. It's naturally made out to give that.

lead to mothers because that's what has been created in our society.

tom kreffer (27:59.182)

From my side, when I had a friend, he became a father before me, about a year before me. And when I went to meet his daughter and just catch up with him, I said, how are you getting on? And he said, the biggest thing I've learned with early fatherhood is that the key to getting it right is to have insanely good teamwork with his wife he was referring to. And I'm with my partner, I'm not a single parent, we're in a relationship.

I've listened to that and that's key. That's kind of how we determine how we wanna approach this thing. Just every week, just constantly talking, constantly talking, trying to find out where we're both at in life. Are we okay in our jobs? What are we gonna do that week? What's the food plan? Just working together as a team and trying to figure out our roles together as such rather than on an individual level. That is something.

that has helped, that sort of removes a lot of the friction. In fact, I have one of my guides on my website, is I think it's called 10 Things You Can Do Right Now To Be A Better Dad. And one of them is to check in with your relationship, if you're in a relationship. I know obviously circumstances will vary. If you are in a relationship and you've got a teammate, then how healthy is that team? How healthy is that relationship? And can you be...

Can you put some belt and braces and take your relationship for a spa weekend, improve it? And as a result, will your kids benefit from that as a by-proxy, from having a happy mum and dad who like to talk to each other? So I think that's really important. Yeah and for me, I don't know about the, you mentioned about mums ultimately being sort of given the reins in society.

I've not experienced that myself personally, but then two things I would say. One, we had kids a little bit later, so I don't know if that has any bearing, and we're from the UK. The other thing is being involved as a dad is not even a choice for me. It really isn't. It's not a conscious decision. I can't not be involved. If anything, I have to sit down and stop myself from being a bit overbearing, perhaps.

Jey (30:26.661)

Now, would you say that's common in the UK? Like that's a very common mindset where you're from and kind of where most men around your same age that are fathers all kind of feel the same way.

tom kreffer (30:27.266)

I just cut.

tom kreffer (30:41.606)

That's such a good question. Personally, a lot of my friends, like my close friends, they're all awesome dads. They really are. They're present, they're involved, they're hands-on. And the dads I meet at the events I do, well, sure, some of them have been dragged along to these events and they really would be at home watching the F1, which I'm not judging.

you know, walking around baby fairs, maybe not everything's a cup of tea. But typically the couples I meet are anxious parents that want to get it right. And that's why they're there. They're looking, they're not just looking there for buying clothes. There's some of the shows I do, they offer all sorts of products and services. And also what I find is that when I'm there, I'm almost always exclusively the only one there with a message for dads.

So I talk to a lot of dads because they see me and they're like, oh, you're here for something for dads. And then I go into the normal pitch and tell them about myself. But typically the ones I meet, and they want to be there for a reason, they wanna get it right, they just have no idea how, because of course they have no idea how. How do any of us have any idea? Parenthood is this thing that gets landed on our doorstep with no prior training, there's no coach telling us what we've got wrong, how we can do better the next day.

We don't get no practice runs, no supervision training. You're given the baby and the midwife say, basically, here you go, you're now a parent. Don't let anything happen to this baby. You've got to keep it alive. Have you got your car seat? Yep, all right, off you go. And then you're straight into it. So it's daunting. And I think we underestimate how daunting it is becoming a parent because we assume it's just this easy normal thing because we see it around us all the time.

You walk out in your street, you see parents, and they've got kids. And as a kid, I mean, I did it as a kid. I was like, oh, well, I'll grow up, I'll meet someone, I'll have kids, because that's what everyone else seems to do. I didn't take into account how difficult it would be to have kids because of fertility issues that we've had. I didn't take into account that actually no parent really knows what they're doing. They're doing the best they can with what they've got, making mistakes left, right, and center, and that's okay because how are they not making mistakes? Just this whole thing. So it...

tom kreffer (33:01.522)

I don't, the parents that I access, that I actually have those connections with, typically that they're all there because they want to improve. If, if there are parents that don't really care or they're not that involved or they have different priorities, well, then they just don't land on my doorstep at all. I don't see them. They don't seek me out to read my books. They don't seek me out shows to have talks. So I think I kind of get blindsided by that a bit. I kind of

When I wrote the first book, and I'm still trying to figure this out, it was like, right, Deirdre came out, I was like, what is my role going to be going forward? Am I just someone who's going to write a few books, get them published and then go off and do something else? Am I going to try and be more of an advocate for like the dad space and try and help other parents? And if I am going to do that, what is that going to look like? And how am I going to go about that? And that's something that I still think about over to this day, really. I'm slowly figuring out what my trajectory will look like.

Um, but trying to figure out, trying to figure out who needs help and who wants help, the two separate problems.

Jey (34:11.209)

100%. And I think that's pretty spot on because it's, again, it's 2023 and even parenting for moms or for dads, it's a lot of choice. There's a lot, a lot, a lot of choice given. It's like, well, if you're not, you can kind of do it however you want to do it. Like there's going to be no, especially for moms, especially in our country here in the US, in the States,

aren't together, then she's just going to up and leave you without that baby and you're just going to have to figure it out. Like you're, you know, if you guys aren't together and there's no legal protection in place, a marriage or anything like that previously, then you know, you're just kind of up and up and screwed about it. And if you don't know how to go about the process of putting in at least like going down to the courthouse and going to the clerk's office and asking, you know, okay, can I get a parenting plan so I can file a parenting plan for an unborn child?

So that I protect my rights. Like, you just don't know this information. You just don't know it. It's not freely given. It's all behind this big secret gate of, you know, state websites and government websites. And everyone thinks like, oh, if I need to get a parenting plan, then I need to get an attorney. And I need to get all these legal things involved and then I can't afford that. So why even bother fighting the fight? Cause I mean, I'm just going to lose anyway, because we live in Washington state or we live on the left.

west coast or we live in the east where it's highly blue or we live in this state and it's pro mom or this one's less pro mom so why would I even fight here because I know I'm not going to win so it's just there's a defeat going into it that ultimately kind of defines how much a dad's going to be involved. Of course it depends on circumstances, it depends on knowledge but again that knowledge isn't just there to be there.

that knowledge is behind us, this big wall of, well, we're not gonna give it to you because, well, you didn't ask, you didn't access it, or you don't know how to access it. So it's really unfortunate. It's not the best, so. But again, it is a choice.

tom kreffer (36:22.72)

I think.

Yeah, you touched on a good point there. Early on when you're talking about how you sort of created the podcast, you were looking for something that wasn't there. So you build it yourself. I did the same, although mine was a fluke. Um, it was, I'd later made that decision, but that that's, that's key, right? If we're looking for help in areas where we can't find the answers or the solutions, but you're in some ways, I feel like if you've, if you've got the drive, then you

Jey (36:43.048)

Mm-hmm.

tom kreffer (36:54.198)

you really do have an obligation to try and maybe scratch that itch, build something that hasn't been built before, because you can repurpose your pain and frustration and just redistribute all everything you've learned for other people so they can have an easier time of it themselves. And then they can find another problem that hasn't been solved and hopefully they'll go and do their thing and build something and then just, you know, romantic, but collectively that's how we make the world a better place. Right. So I think we need more of that.

Jey (36:59.017)

Mm.

Jey (37:22.773)

100%

tom kreffer (37:24.546)

In fact, when I said to you, I go to these events and I'm like, I'm almost the only one there with the dads. I went to one at the weekend and there was another guy there and he had a stand for dads. First time I've seen one in like two years and he came over and he introduced himself and he said, yeah, I'm doing this thing and he's trying to build these local dad networks in local communities. Just awesome. I couldn't believe it. I was really happy to see him. And one of the things I said is like, we need so many more people.

I should not be the only one here selling books. There should be lots of other people. I should have a lot of competition, of dads selling products and services and just getting out there. But to see him was really encouraging. Baby steps, right? One, you don't change the world overnight. Sometimes to fill up a swimming pool, it's just the trip, trip of a tap.

Jey (38:08.585)

Number set.

Jey (38:13.821)

100% and you know, it's It's hard because we want to help You know all these dads we want to help all these other people these dads get their get their things together get their Get their lives together We want to help them be the best we want to help them learn how to like invest in themselves or become the best version of themselves

so that their kids get the best version of themselves. But it's really hard for dads because it's not allowed, in a sense. It's not allowed. It's very much, at least speaking my reality here in the United States, it's not allowed. It's like, oh, well, no, you just go and be a dad. Maybe involve yourself and...

Go get some pats on the back for doing anything, for being a good dad, but don't improve or be the best because we don't want that for you. But oh, but the mom, yes, absolutely. Slay, queen, go be the best you, go invest in you, go become the best version of you, go be that best mom. Go be that best mom 100% of the time. And it's like encouraged and that mentality.

is was a big factor in my divorce because it was so much that there was many other compounding factors but that was also a factor as well. It's like well she's you know doing all like her reality was like me divorcing you and leaving you is me investing in myself. That's better for me because I'm just so unhappy and society says I need to go and be the best me, best version of me.

that I can be so I can't be that like with you and whatnot in this relationship in these circumstances. To an extent, I'm better off going and you know, not being with you and going and finding someone else and being with other people while we're still in this relationship because that's me investing in me finding the best version of me because I can't find that with you kind of thing. And you know, whatever I'm much happier now the grass on my side is much greener.

Jey (40:29.213)

Um, much happier because now in this relationship coin going back to that, like we invest in each other. We invest, we invest into each other. Like she invests into me. She invests. Like I told her this recording, you know, we're not living together yet at the time of this recording, but she usually calls me on her way to work and I told her, Hey, don't call me this morning. I'm going to be recording. Um, I love you. I'll text you kind of thing. Um,

No question that she like, yeah, have a great recording, like go kill it kind of thing. Like it's there's a there's a level of investment and support into each other into this relationship because she's come into our relationship as a bonus like parent for the girls for my girls. Um, and then any future children we have she'll obviously be a mom and she's fantastic in the role now And I no doubt she's going to be a fantastic mother. Um

far beyond my wildest dreams of having a partner and that support, but it's a mutual investment and you have to also invest in yourself. You have to put that time for your own journaling, working out, mental health, physical health, emotional health, spiritual health, all these different kinds of health. You have to invest in these different aspects of you. You also have to invest that into your partner if you want to help them. Also,

be that best version of themselves so that ultimately your kids get the best version of what parenting looks like because then you're setting up, you're setting them, you're creating a mold, you're laying a foundation for what their future is going to look like if and when they decide they're going to have kids and how that's going to look, the kind of parent they're going to be, how involved, you know, Arlo's going to be with his kids, how involved my girls are going to be with their kids.

and what that example is going to look like and how that's going to carry on. And even beyond that, their, their want and desire for even having kids. Cause I feel like that's a lot of the issue today. Why we're having a population decline in so many areas in the world is because people see how their parents were raised or how they were treated. And it's like, well, that's all I know how to be. So why would I have a kid? And I'm just going to go and chase a career. I'm just going to go and chase, you know,

Jey (42:47.861)

chase a dollar, I'm just gonna go and chase, you know, my own happy life, or I'm just gonna go and chase being in a relationship, but I'm not gonna have kids because I know what kind of parents I was, I had, so that's how I'm gonna be, and I don't wanna give that to a kid. So I'm just gonna stop it and just not do it. I'm not gonna try to fix these parts or try to be better because I'm just not gonna do it. Because it is a big, scary decision to have kids and a really hard one sometimes. So it all kind of stems back to all of that.

And that's kind of where the foundation comes from and investing in yourself and into your kids to get that best version of them for, for you. So.

tom kreffer (43:28.97)

You've had sounds like you've had a you've had a rough for a few years You've had to certainly come through your period of development and growth See you and I come from very different backgrounds. I have not been through a divorce or a relationship breakup I've got friends who have and Speaking merely as a spectator Well boy, I do not envy that I do not envy that too. I've seen I've seen the damage. I've seen the blast radius I've seen a lot of people get hurt

Jey (43:51.817)

Don't.

tom kreffer (43:58.402)

And I just, it's one of the reasons why I do not take my relationship for granted. So important I don't, because if we let that suffer and that doesn't work out, which, you know, we're not going to hell if that happens, relationships don't work. They fall down. These, these things do happen, but it's, it's not just the two people in the relationship that get damaged by the fallout.

kids, friends, family, it's the blast radius is huge and it can take a long time to recover and in that road to recover, recovery.

scars are formed, traumas are had, aren't they? All these things that we want to avoid for our children, but ultimately, life happens and we can't. But you kept, to your point about, you said something that I literally repeat about 20 times a day to anyone who will listen, which is, yeah, if you want to be the best version for your kids, you have to be the best version of yourself. I say a version of that constantly, constantly. Whenever I say it in front of my partnerships of Rolls-R-Royce, here he goes again, preaching.

But it's true, it's so true. If you want the best for your kids, you have to become the best version of yourself. Otherwise, how are you gonna teach them stuff? How are you gonna show them what they're capable of? I get really annoyed when I hear, it can be a mum or a dad, any parent, and they say, oh, I want a better life for my kids. I don't want them to drink as much as I drink, as an example. And then they open another can.

And I'm like, you need to be the example you want them to lead. If you want them to live a certain life, you need to show them how. You can't throw in the towel and then just hope that they don't follow in your footsteps. They are going to see you do the thing you don't want them to do. What do you think is likely to happen? And that, that upsets me because I feel like people are giving up on themselves. They're thrown in the towel when they don't need to, when, I mean, you just hear about the most incredible things. People can bring the...

Jey (45:33.313)

Mm-hmm.

tom kreffer (46:00.622)

bringing themselves back for the brink of total disaster in the most inspiring ways. And I feel like we can all learn from that collectively. So yeah, always self-development, figure out what that looks like, figure out if the career's for now, figure out if you wanna leave the career for life. For me, one of my big decisions this year as someone who's starting to get some traction as a writer, I have grand plans. After I finish with the parenthood stuff, I wanna turn into fiction.

and I have this huge fiction series that I really can't wait to get cracking, get started into. But I get most of my writing done in the morning before anyone wakes up in the house. And at some point then I get a knock on the door and Arlo walks in and he says, "'Daddy, can we play?'' How am I saying no to that? Yeah, I know it's a choice on paper.

Jey (46:40.785)

Mm-hmm.

Jey (46:52.701)

You can't you have to you have to answer those bids for your attention you have to answer those bids for your attention as a dad time and time again and You know, they're they'll come a time when you don't where those bids aren't as many

tom kreffer (47:05.85)

Exactly. They won't, well they won't come at all. They won't, they won't happen. I'll tell you another quick story. We were in a restaurant once in a hotel and it's pretty busy. Arlo, he was one and he didn't want to wait at the table because he's one and who wants to wait at the table for their dinner. So he was off exploring and he ends up going under the only empty table in the entire restaurant and he calls me over. He's like, daddy, dadda, dadda at the time. He's like, come here.

And I was like looking around and there's so many people and they're all eating their meals. I'm like, oh, what am I going to do? And then I thought, how many times am I going to get an invitation to go and hang out with a one-year-old under a table? This is probably the only time it's ever going to happen. So obviously I'm going under the table. We're just going to take the stairs. The wonderful thing about that was I thought we'd get some awkward stares and judgmental frowns from other parents saying, you know, get your kid in line. The opposite was true. They found the scene delightful.

Jey (47:45.441)

True.

Yeah.

tom kreffer (48:01.386)

and they were fully on board with just dad and his kid hanging out while waiting for dinner to show up.

Jey (48:06.753)

True. Yeah, no, 100%. I love that. You have to answer those b**** for your attention. Whether you're at the pool and your daughter says, I want to have an underwater tea party, I guess you're throwing on the goggles and you're having an underwater tea party, whatever that looks like, and doing these things and it just... I've had many, many. There's something, there's something else, they're fun. Highly recommend, but...

tom kreffer (48:23.402)

You've had one of them? You've had an underwater tea party? Trying to picture it. Brilliant.

Jey (48:35.557)

You know, just to wrap up here, it's been a great conversation. Really appreciate your time. I want to go into what's called the YDP-3. There's just three questions. I asked all my guests a little bit about them just to wrap up the podcast and leave us on a, I guess, a philosophical note of sorts. The first question is where are you rooted? And that can be like, where are you rooted physically or where are you rooted? Like in terms of values, what's important?

Like, where do your roots run kind of thing? I'm sure you've heard that phrase before.

tom kreffer (49:09.518)

Geographically, I live in Northampton, which is in the Midlands in the UK, England. To tackle it from a more emotional standpoint, relationships are key to me. Whether that's my relationship with my partner, with my son, with my friends, I'm very fortunate to have a really good group of friends who I met at university. And we have amazing friendships, but as we approach our 40s, the majority of us have

children ourselves and as I said earlier, they're great guys, they're all doing a really good job with parenthood, but it's harder to get time together, harder to make time where we can all commit to and just hang out and do, okay, not as often, but just recapture some of those moments that we had of why we sort of fell in love as friends together from uni. That's really important to me. It's really important that I teach Arlo that as well, the value of relationships and...

how important it is to put the effort in. If you find people where you can sit in silence for an hour and it not be awkward at all, keep hold of those people, collect those people as often as you can. If they're positive people and they're positive influences in your life, then share your life with those people. So I would say that's a real big one for me. Another part of me is I'm quite story-oriented. A lot of what I've done in life and a lot of what I do sort of...

There's a theme of storytelling from when I was a kid, just watching movies and reading books to what I do now, actually telling my story as a father. Arlo's really into stories. Books are something we have a lot in our house and that will be something I will be, like he will be able to go to bed a lot later if he reads more books. He'll get more money out of me if he reads more books. He'll be able to get out so much stuff in exchange for him reading books and he'll think he's winning.

of course, when he grows up, hopefully that's exactly what he'll be. So yeah, there's my answer.

Jey (51:10.325)

I love that. I love that. And the second one here is what grounds you? Like what brings you back? I mean, I assume I could probably answer that for you, but I would say probably journaling, maybe some writing, maybe playing with Arlo. But beyond those things, what are some of the other things that ground you that help bring you back when you're stressed, when you're really needing to kind of come back down from high emotions or anything like that?

tom kreffer (51:19.373)

What would you say?

tom kreffer (51:22.944)

Yeah.

tom kreffer (51:38.706)

Yes, the journey is obviously a big one. Playing another one. Yeah. Huge. And when we're playing it's phones away, no distractions. Sometimes I'll set a timer. Let's disappear into whatever world. He loves Paw Patrol. So we do a lot of that. That's great. Um, exercise is, is a really good one. Do a HIIT workout. Just change, change something up about my day. Get away from the desk.

Get outside and go for a walk. Walking is a big one for me. Get outside in nature. I try and get out once a day. I don't always do that, but that can help. And another big thing for me is once a week I take a bath, which sounds a bit silly, but it's not. It just helps me unwind. And not only that, I get really good ideas, really good writing ideas. So I zone out, I forget about everything else. I have my phone by me.

That's on aeroplane mode. I have a playlist and if anything pops into my head, I quickly jot it down and then I just get back to zoning out and relaxing. So those things ground me.

Jey (52:45.493)

that those are some great, those are some amazing strategies. I hadn't thought of just taking a bath and zoning out. I mean, I zone out plenty as it is, and that's where a lot of my ideas come from as well, where I'm just zoned out and then I'm like, whoa, that's a great idea. Like I had an idea for another kind of series of children's books that I wanna write eventually or maybe do and the idea just keeps coming back to me when I'm in that zone out. I like to just sit in silence. Like for me, I...

tom kreffer (53:12.599)

Perfect.

Jey (53:13.861)

I really learned after my divorce, like how to embrace silence because it was quiet half the time now. It was just so quiet and I had to learn what to find in that silence and silence is honestly such an amazing place to find yourself and to explore your thoughts and emotions and whatnot. But beyond that, the third question here is if I come to you and I'm like, Tom, look.

I'm in a dark place. I don't know how to get out of it. I'm really struggling, man. What advice do you got for me? I'm struggling, you know, whatever I'm struggling with, my relationship, my parenting, whatever it is, all the things. Just your one kind of one key piece of advice for a brother that's struggling.

tom kreffer (54:06.082)

When you say you're struggling, what are you struggling with? That's gonna be my first question. If you can't give me a straight answer, then we are talking about that until you can give me a straight answer. Whether we need to go to the pub and have a couple of beers, get a takeaway, go for a walk, whatever it is, we need to, what I will be looking to do is get you to really understand and define the exact thing you're struggling with. Because when we can label it and see it clearly, then we can develop a response strategy to what's being missed. So that's how I would approach it.

Jey (54:33.593)

I love that. I love that. Because you're... I love that that's such a hands-on response. Like, I'm not letting you go anywhere. Like, let's come on. You're gonna tell me what's going on.

tom kreffer (54:43.574)

Yeah, if my friends heard that, yeah, if my friends listen to this interview, they will laugh at that answer because they'll be like, yeah, that's exactly how you would approach it.

Jey (54:52.049)

Exactly true. Well, Tom, I appreciate your time. Go ahead and tell the people where they can find you, more of your work, um, and any social media you want to share.

tom kreffer (55:03.79)

So I have a blessing and a curse with my surname, Tom Creffer, K-R-E-F-E-R. Not the most easy surname to pronounce, but very easy to find my work on the internet because there's not many of me. I'm on all the socials, but the best place you can just find out more information of me is my website, which is tomcreffer.com. Or you can search me on anywhere around the world, most places around the world where you can buy your books. My stuff is available, it's available on...

audio, digital, hardback and paperback. So yeah, check it out. I've got plenty of free stuff on my website. I've got a new parent starter pack if you're a new parent. I have a pregnancy guide for dads, a newborn baby guide for dads, a labor guide for dads, which is really popular. And every week I have a lessons in daddy newsletter that comes out.

Jey (55:52.937)

What was that second to last one? A what guide for dads?

tom kreffer (55:57.636)

pregnancy, newborn and labour.

Jey (56:00.461)

Labor, okay. I thought you said labia and I was like, whoa!

tom kreffer (56:02.206)

Yeah, that's... Yeah, that's niche. No, I'm niche in parenthood. I'm not that niche. No, labour, which is my... does super well. That's the one that everyone signs up to when I meet them at the Baby Expo. So yeah, and then, yeah, my lessons in daddy newsletter, which is a relatively new thing, but it's going down really well. So hopefully readers will check that out. Super proud of that. I think one day I'm gonna collate them all into a book, possibly.

Jey (56:07.709)

Very niche.

Jey (56:15.378)

I bet.

tom kreffer (56:32.006)

So yeah, reach out, say hi, ask me anything.

Jey (56:35.037)

Love that. Well, Tom, thank you. I appreciate your time. I appreciate you coming on. I appreciate getting to know you a bit better, sharing your story, talking about all things, daddying and all the things we talked about today. It was a lot of fun. I appreciate your time. And we're going to let the audience do their thing that I pay them to do.

tom kreffer (56:50.964)

Awesome.